I thoroughly enjoy the comments and discussions here! Thank you all so much! But I would like to have more people join in and have bigger discussions. Please invite people to view, follow, and join in on the threads here. I am preparing my next few. I have had several thoughts I want to get out.
Thanks!
disillusionist 
I can’t speak for others, but I’ve done that. HOWEVER, I could ask fundies, if you insist —
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I appreciate you spreading the word in the past and I guess I won’t really know if or when I am ready for the fundies. But I would not be opposed to them here now.
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Interestingly, according to statiscs, fundamentalsm is at 17% and falling, while atheism/agnosicism is at 22% and rising – just sayin’ —
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BTW, I invited one over – Brandon, aka, “aNaiveThinker” – make no mistake, here’s nothing naive about him.
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Good morning to you too, Sweetheart —
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I’m just very disappointed in you Arch — especially since you can’t stand Brandon. If aillusionist is trying to sort things out, then this is one cruel move on your part. Matt, a very highly respected blogger ask Brandon to never comment on his blog again. I banned Brandon. Other respected bloggers no longer want to dialog with him, and you invite him here? What productive reason would you find in doing this at a time like this?
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It will be OK
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AI, you’ve admitted that your blog was harder to continue than you thought. Well, you haven’t seen nothing yet if the fundy floodgates are opened, I assure you, which is why I think it’s not in your best interest to engage in discourse with people who have an agenda — who are not really interested in discourse, and could very well add more stress to your already stressful situation. I’ve seen this happen with a lot of people in your situation, and many ended up having to go private.
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I believe that he can handle it.
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Well, just don’t go adding high octane rocket fuel to the fire, OK? Geesh.
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When I could drink it? Get real –!
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“When I could drink it? Get real –!”A
LOL — Have a good weekend, Arch.
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Always do, SweetCheeks —
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Arch, you may address me as Neuro, Neuronotes, NN, V or Victoria.
Thanks in advance.
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So it’s OK if I call you Vicky*?
(*NOTE: This has been going on for over two years, and the ‘Vicky’ thing was the very first argument we ever had – memories are made of this! The kid’s crazy about me, she just hides it well.)
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I keep waiting for someone to chime in with “get a room”
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She wishes —
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Arch, you’re a good man, but Victoria is out of your league.🙊
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If you say so —
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“Arch, you’re a good man, but Victoria is out of your league” – True, but that’s OK, I don’t mind lowering my standards —
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Is NeuroVictoria okay? I love your handle. I covet it.
I know I asked you that before and you said yes and I’m the only one that uses it but I want to respect you and make sure it is still okay. ❤
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I suspect she prefers Queen V —
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Aww, Zoe, of course it’s OK. My comment was directed at Arch only, as he likes testing boundaries, if you get my drift.
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Thanks. You want for me to speak to him?
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Haha, that’s OK, you have enough to contend with. ❤
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And by ‘speak to him,” Zoe means —
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Yeah, I knew what she meant. 😉
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PeeeerrrFect!
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Go get a room with ‘Rosie’.
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Who?
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You don’t recall Jackson Brown’s song “Rosie”? I’ll refresh your memory with a refrain:
“But Rosie, you’re all right
(You wear my ring)
When you hold me tight
(Rosie, that’s my thing)
When you turn out the light
(I got to hand it to me)
Looks like it’s me and you again tonight, Rosie”
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Never heard of it, but as you know, I’ve led a very sheltered life.
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Right. What kind of music do they play in strip clubs?
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Mostly Tchaikovsky, Mozart, once in a while a Strauss waltz – very sensual —
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…and you’re sticking with that story?
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It works for me —
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You and Rosie.
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Who?
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Seems like a nice vote of confidence.
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Word.
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I have considered that. I know that I cannot truly understand it until it happens, but the difficulty I find is in still being “Hidden” about some things and totally open about others. That may or may not be related to the “fundy stress”.
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Many of us are in the same position you are. We share so much, but remain anonymous because of the nature of our blogs and comments. Atheism and deconversion is taboo throughout our country and in many parts around the world. We understand.
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I forget that some here, who are so outspoken, are still in the closet about their non-belief in the “real world”.
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AD I came out to my parents and one of my sisters a couple of years ago. That Christmas my parents outed me to my entire family. I cut my abusive parents off and for some reason, that particular sister has had nothing to do with me since. I’ve tried to reach her and my best friend I mentioned earlier a few times with no success. I’ve basically laid those relationships to the side. Just this week I had meetings with my kids’ teachers. My youngest’s teacher talked to me about a student who is not allowed to participate in Halloween activities, not even measuring and weighing pumpkins. She didn’t get into specifics, but I imagine he’s a Jehovah’s Witness. Well, his parents are and they’re forcing their views upon him. Any way, she asked if I had an issue with my son’s participation. I told her I didn’t. Before I knew it I said “we’re not religious, but we still do holidays.” Between the situation with the little boy and what I told her, she looked absolutely stunned. She’s from this area and her husband is a teacher at a popular Christian school near us. They’re in their 20s. I think she’s learning that people have different beliefs, some have none at all. It was as though she had no idea that people in the area did not practice her brand of philosophy.
I go through stages between being blatantly out and incredibly secretive. I’ve had an actual picture of me as my gravatar for a long time. As time passed, I actually got to the point where I worked up the courage to place my first name with my photo. There even came a time when I posted my last name as well. I think I was inspired to do the latter because of Openly Secular Day this past spring. After a few months I lost my courage and took it all down. I’m working on being a little more bold about my non belief in the real world, but I’ve learned that I can’t do any of it all at once. It’s a process for me. The truth is, I don’t see why it even has to be mentioned unless religion comes up in conversation in my every day life.
My husband works for a religious network of hospitals (Aren’t most of them religious?). He’s open at work. Again, not because he wanted to out himself, but because he refuses to sit quietly when they talk blatantly about religion while they should be doing their jobs.
I have learned that many women have very different deconversion experiences than most men. We struggled to get out of religion longer than men because we were heavily abused, manipulated, shamed and heavily policed throughout our Christian experience. We couldn’t get out or didn’t know how because we were so heavily bound. I don’t care what anyone says, when it comes to oppressing women Christianity gives Islam a run for its money. I have to say that Christian women are the biggest misogynists that I have ever known! I don’t know who was worse throughout my faith, the authoritative preacher in the pulpit or his wife or grown daughter constantly criticizing my behavior.
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Well said, Charity. I totally agree with you that authoritarian religion, i.e., Christianity, impacts women more than men. I’m not trying to minimize men’s negative experiences, or their let-down and feeling of betrayal. But it doesn’t come close to the negative psychological impact it has on women. I agree that women can be misogynists, but I also tend to think that many if not most are experiencing a form of Stockholm syndrome. It’s not a matter of “misinterpreting” scriptures, and when Christian men (or women) say things like this I want to puke. Adam Lee, who is a contributing writer for Big Think, and has a blog on Pathos titled Daylight Atheism, wrote:
I firmly believe that we would be a far more advanced and peaceful species had it not been for the patriarchal Abrahamic religions.
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Absolutely Victoria. I truly believe that the Westboro Baptists are the real Christians because they actually follow scripture. The only reason they offend other Christians is because they are a mirror image of all the things so many Goddites struggle to believe about their own faith. They know those supposed morals lack integrity. The WBC protests remind them of all the things about god that make them uncomfortable.
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That is excellent insight, Charity. About 4 or 5 months ago, my mom and I got into a conversation, and she was going on about how bad ISIS was, and I agreed. But I also told her that those exact same behaviors were commanded and condoned by the god of the Bible. She gave me a weird look, and said, what do you mean? So I took out the Bible and started reading scriptures to her, and she begged me to stop. She was in shock.
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I can so relate Victoria. The one sister that I actually still communicate with didn’t understand what I meant by god being violent. She’s the one taking courses on line. She also kept telling me that the OT was in the past, that those things didn’t matter anymore. I know, confused the hell out of me too. She also said that in her courses she was learning that scripture is specific for the people god was directing those words to at that time, not for general use today. I told her that her school doesn’t really believe that for if they did they wouldn’t have so many rules based on scripture for their current students to follow. She tried to talk over me at first in that phone conversation, but after a while she got kind of quiet. She knows that I was a very serious Christian most of my life. I wasn’t going to allow her to talk to me as though I don’t know what I’m talking about. Hitchens and Dawkins didn’t pull me away from god, the god idea pushed me away itself.
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“She also kept telling me that the OT was in the past, that those things didn’t matter anymore. I know, confused the hell out of me too. She also said that in her courses she was learning that scripture is specific for the people god was directing those words to at that time, not for general use today.”
By that reasoning, it would be OK to have a convicted pedophile babysit your children – after all, his crimes were in the past.
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Exactly, Arch. One has to continually do mental gymnastics to reason an unreasonable theology.
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I could have been in the olympics in that brand of gymnastics!
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well played
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AD, the look on her face said it all.
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Numbers Chapter 31 is a pretty good place to start in that regard. The only real difference is that ISIS is perhaps slightly more merciful than God, who on this occasion only allowed virgin girl’s to be spared for use as sex slaves.
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Peter, Numbers 31 was precisely the scriptures I read to her. The reason the subject came up was that we had been watching a panel discussion on a mainstream media news network (CNN) about ISIS and what they had done to girls and women. You are absolutely correct—ISIS was indeed more merciful than the Biblical god, and when my mom realized this, she couldn’t believe this was straight out of the Bible.I told her this is the god every Christian is told to obey and worship — ‘God the Father’.
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Did that information change anything, or do you suppose she’s still mulling it around in her head. From what I recall about your mother, she’s not some hard-headed Christian (like CS) who refuses to listen to any points of view than her own.
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Arch, she was so repulsed by what she heard that she determined the Bible could not be representing the god she believes in. Cognitive dissonance had kicked in. I didn’t want to press the issue with her further, and no, she is no where as hardheaded as CS. He’s desensitized, and as you are aware, justifies the psychopathic behavior of Yahweh.
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“I didn’t want to press the issue with her further.” – I couldn’t agree more – press much harder, and resistance sets in. Better to let her choose to explore it more on her own.
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What is especially shocking about Numbers 31 is that the target people, the Midianites did not even occupy the Promised Land. The Bible sates that the instruction to destroy them came directly from God who decided they should be destroyed as act of vengeance.
The 12,000 Israelite soldiers battled and wiped out the greater Midiantie force (we don’t know exact numbers but the fact they took 32,500 virgin girls as prisoners, suggests the enemy soldiers must have been in excess of 100,000) and the Israelite casualties were zero. It has the all the hallmarks of a made-up story.
It is rather odd that God couldn’t help the Christians of the Middle East and North Africa in a similar manner as they fell before the Islamic armies in the 7th and 8th centuries.
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First of all, Peter, the Midianites occupied the southeastern portion of the Levant, near the Arabian desert, no one in their right mind would covet their land.
But most importantly, Israel, even before the kingdoms began, was a small force. I recall a situation (but can’t remember the book, chapter and verse, and haven’t had enough coffee yet to be encouraged to look it up), where the Israelites were going against a superior force. Once their own army had been assembled, the old and infirm were removed, reducing it further, then the young below a certain age were also removed, reducing it still further, yet they went into battle and won. I’ve had this same discussion (or tried to) on Colorstorm’s blog, when he wrote an entry on David and Goliath. All of these stories, including the D & G fable, were designed to bolster the courage of the Israelites by demonstrating that with their god on their side, they can always go up against superior forces and win. Think of it as a half-time pep talk during a football game. Oh, that’s right, you guys down under don’t have REAL football games – forgot — 😉
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But who actually killed Goliath? There is some evidence in the Bible that causes doubt:
From Wikipedia:
Of course Bible translators try to remove these embarrassing contradictions in the Bible. The NIV does it all the time, the technical time is making an emendation to the text.
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Peter, what cause do you have to believe that Goliath was even a real person?
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“It has the all the hallmarks of a made-up story.”
Absolutely, Peter, yet it is reflective of actual behaviors from your average alpha male baboon and the worst of human rulers.
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I should mentioned that I was reading out of both the OT and NT. Also, the Bible is formulated to hijack cognitive functions associated with maternal/paternal and romantic attachments (father, bridegroom-bride, born again, rebirth, milk of the word, bosom, etc) which impact the brain to where these attachments release neurochemical rewards such as oxytocin, vasopresson and dopamine. In turn, these neurochemicals deactivate areas of the brain associated with negative emotions (towards the one you have a deep attachment with) and critical social assessment. So, it is true that love can be blind from a neurological standpoint, and people who are in love with their Biblical god don’t see the psychopathic behaviors or they will justify them.
This explains why people who deconvert are stunned that they ever believed in such a god in the first place, or all the wacky woo woo that one would see in fairy tales. Parts of their brain come back online. I’m pretty sure you are aware of this. I’m just sharing in case there are lurkers who think we just don’t understand. Oh, we understand all too well. Been there, done that. Was blind but now we see.
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BTW, I was thinking about our conversations about words like coming, come and came in hymns, choruses and modern day worship music being sexual. Today I decided I will do the same with rise, risen, and rising. “He’s risen. Hallelujah!”
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Oh Charity, I hadn’t thought about that before. He is risen and he is coming. Haha. I just went back to that post I did with all those church signs. My stomach hurts. That believers can’t see all the sexual innuendos is telling. Here’s a new one:
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OMFG — I can’t breathe.
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He’s coming for me, is he coming for you?
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According to this church sign, apparently so.
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Oops, I should have quoted you, Charity in relation to the church sign. You wrote:
“He’s coming for me, is he coming for you?”
While I’m add it, I’ll throw this one in.
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at*
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Or in godsmanforever’s case …. a good lubricant will bring a smile.
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Not only is he coming but he’s coming AGAIN!
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“Not only is he coming but he’s coming AGAIN!”
OH GOD !
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Yeah, I can relate to those feelings of shock in what I formerly believed.
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“More incredible is how many women have willingly taken part in their own subjugation by joining and participating in religions that have done their utmost to deny them the full equality and equal rights which they deserve.”
Insanitybytes could well be the poster child for that sentence.
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It’s sad that your sister bases her relationship with you, on whether or not you two share a belief system. You’re the same you, you were before she found out. Were you close previously?
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Hey Arch, that particular sister and I were super close for years. In all honesty, I just kept making excuses for her lack of communication. I tried not to be too negative about it. However, seeing what I commented on here and your reply has made me think that maybe this Jesus stuff does get in the way of our relationship. This particular sister lives in the same town as our parents. She is a people pleaser and doesn’t like to make waves with my parents. She often doesn’t agree with them, but goes along to get along.
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I just find that SO hard to wrap my head around, N/A – my son and I are atheists, my daughter a “washed in the blood” fundy (her grandmother got her talons into her early, plus she married a Redneck – ‘nuf sed) – but we have no family dynamic issues.
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Jesus was always everything the first 40 years of my life. My parents are still obsessed. My stuggle is not just mending from religion. People talk about getting back to their authentic selves upon decoversion. How can I do that when I have NEVER known who I am outside of religion? I’ll get there, it’s just going to take me longer than it might take other deconverts. It is what it is.
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Take your time!
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“How can I do that when I have NEVER known who I am outside of religion?”
You don’t have to – like an amnesia victim, you’re free to be whomever you wish to be – re-create yourself, few ever get that chance.
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Not really, Arch because I remember a lot of bull shit.I’m still shaking it off. However, I get what you’re saying.
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I do have something positive to add though, Arch. Tonight at dinner I looked at Studly and my boys. I thought “wow, this is the first generation of atheists on either side of our families.” Suddenly, I was in awe and felt, can I say it? Proud!
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I don’t care what you say about me, you’re alright —
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You know I love you, Arch. You always bring a smile to my face. You and Ark help me find the giggles in the drama.I shared the conversation you two had with Naive Thinker. We both found it honest and hilarious!
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“I shared the conversation you two had with Naive Thinker.”
You actually speak to him when you don’t HAVE to?
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Between his football and soccer games, I manage to get a few words in there.
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(I shared the conversation with hubby that is.)
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Now THAT I can live with, I was beginning to doubt your sanity.
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Yes, I like to pick up the phone and randomly call apologists. 👎
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“That which is is that which is not is not” – “That which is, is; that which is not, is not.” – What a difference punctuation makes —
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Say it! Say it proudly!
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<cite?"How can I do that when I have NEVER known who I am outside of religion?"
Charity, you’ve already gotten great advise, but I wanted to share my thoughts. Not to minimize your experience because I remember when I deconverted that feeling of not knowing who I was because I had spent so many years “dying to myself”. It was a daunting feeling. The beauty is that our brains are malleable (neuroplasticity), and we can reinvent ourselves. The possibilities are unlimited and you are the creator. 🙂
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“…we can reinvent ourselves. The possibilities are unlimited and you are the creator.” – I wish I’d said that. Oh wait —
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Arch, I was quoting from the video—as an intro—one I’ve shared many times. But hey, by all means, take a bow. 😉
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She’s being prophetic. You are the logos word and she is speaking your rhema word, my sweet lord.🙏
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Not always the right policy…but too bad she doesn’t even offer you the same consideration.
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I know I’m making excuses here, but she has it much harder than I do by living where they reside.
I can’t explain the hold they’ve had on all seven of us. (all daughters btw) I know it’s unhealthy, a fellow blogging friend equate it to emotional incest. We all were always expected to be my parents supporters and encouragers, even through their abuse, severe neglect and over the top religious indoctrination. I think that’s why Ark will always have special significance in my life. He gets it and unapologetically runs his mouth against Nazi fundies who indoctrinate their children.
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“He gets it and unapologetically runs his mouth against Nazi fundies who indoctrinate their children.”
Yeah, he does do that.
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Speaking of Nazi’s, “Gott mit uns” which translates as “God with us” was inscribed on the belt buckles of German Soldiers in the Second World War.
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I may write a post on my feeling towards such relationships. I am contemplating it.
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Wow! That is a post I cannot relate to much. So sorry! …again..religion doesn’t hurt. PATHETIC LIE.
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(((hug))) I agree. Some of the worst hate was woman on woman. 😦
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“…woman on woman…”
(except for the hate part –)
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Personally, I’m surrounded by Rednecks and two miles south of a Muslim cemetery – what to be worried about?
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AD,
Victoria makes a good point. I couldn’t handle certain aspects of having a blog about deconversion. I shut mine down a long time ago. The fundies are either all fire and brimstone or they’re like cookie cutter Donna Reed robots spreading the love of cheeses. I found both types triggering.
However, at the same time, you are constantly around Evangelicals. If you can handle them in person, I imagine you can handle any keyboard evangelist.
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In real life I do not get mad. Like for real, I have been really mad only a couple times in my life. I do not get frustrated easily. I think these skills will serve me well.
I have, for my own practice, actually gone out on the streets in a couple different big cities and argued with street preachers while incognito. I did not change their minds and they didn’t shake me up or change my mind either. I didn’t expect they would, but thought it would be good practice.
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I rest my case —
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Hey Charity, I really appreciate you coming here and lending support and sharing your opinion and experiences. I loved your blog, and you inspired me beyond measure with your raw honesty, but I can fully understand why you needed to close it down. By the time I had started blogging, I had been deconverted for 8 years. Plus I had gotten a little taste of what to expect in discourse on other forums. I saw a side of Christianity that was really eye-opening and disheartening. But it wasn’t until I got on WP that I became aware just how toxic it could get.
I don’t know if you know Peter, one of the kindest people I know here on WP, but he experienced the toxicity and it was a bitter pill for him to swallow. When he started sharing his doubts and asking sincere questions on evangelical sites, he was still in a leadership position at his church. He was called derogatory names and raked over the coals by WP evangelists. But Peter isn’t married and neither does he have children. When he finally tells his congregation, I’m sure it’s going to be difficult and he might lose his social network. But he lives in a much more secular country and he shared on another blog that he could actually be making better money if he wasn’t involved in his church..
AD is in a situation where he is apparently well-known all over the country in evangelical circles, plus he has a family. A lot is at stake, and that alone is stressful as it is. He has no idea how it’s going to go down when he becomes openly secular, and is even concerned his family might be harmed or personally get death threats. Those concerns are in his offline life. Online, with people being anonymous, it could get a lot nastier.
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“I don’t know if you know Peter, one of the kindest people I know here on WP” – Peter, William and Howie, three of the kindest, gentlest people I know – even Neuro will agree with me on that one.
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I don’t know William, but the other two are kind.
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I may not have been real clear on something. I would concerned my family may be harmed or personally get death threats is pretty accurate, but I would not say I expect them. I do not want to over-dramatize my situation. Now, I cannot say I would rule out anything because the internet connects lots of crazy people.
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“but I would not say I expect them.”
AD, I appreciate that you wanted to clarify. I didn’t gather, from what you wrote, that you expected it, which is why I used the terms “concerns” and “concerned”.
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I figured as much. I can tell you “old pros” choose your words wisely. I did want to use the opportunity to be clear for anyone who might have misunderstood due to my wording.
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That’s understandable.
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Sorry, I meant to write AD (hope you don’t mind me shortening your moniker). I think I picked up AI from Swarn. 😉
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I don’t mind and either/both are find abbreviations.
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I, too, can’t stand Brandon!
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lol
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Well, at least you have enough sense not to invite him to a newbie’s blog. I see nothing productive coming from this.
How are you doing Noel? You’re burning the midnight oil. Having a good weekend so far?
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“Well, at least you have enough sense not to invite him to a newbie’s blog. I see nothing productive coming from this.”
Oh ye of little faith —
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Oh ye of little faith —
Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject. ~Unknown
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Always the word conservationist (he once criticized J.F. Cooper soundly, for his verbosity – “Fenimore Cooper’s Literary Offenses” – 1885), it’s not surprising Mark Twain said it more concisely:
“Faith is believin’ what you know ain’t so.”
— M. Twain —
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“Faith is believin’ what you know ain’t so.”
— M. Twain —
I rest my case.
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Your case wouldn’t be so heavy if it weren’t so full of it.
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I am well, can’t complain.
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Wubbles?
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Excellent! Believer or not? (My guess is not.)
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Oh yes, he’s quite the believer. Ironically, for over a year I was calling him a sycophantic slime-bucket (due to his debating style), and our lovely friend, Victoria NeuroNotes, was vehemently defending him, but that seems to have changed somewhat.
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Arch, it changed after about a year and a half of continuous dialog with him, for which all of us involved, except you, gave him every opportunity to voice his opinions and findings without harassment. We all went the distance. You simply couldn’t stand him from the beginning which is why I defended him. I just find it interesting that you would invite him here knowing the history, that nothing productive would come of it, and AI’s posts would end up being derailed.
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“You simply couldn’t stand him from the beginning which is why I defended him.” – Now THAT’s a good reason! Did I mention I can’t stand broccoli?
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It just took you guys a little longer to see through his subterfuge, nothing wrong with that. Besides, I haven’t seen him breaking a leg to get over here, have you? If anything, he’s lurking, looking for weaknesses in A/D that he can exploit.
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I am sure I will provide him with many. That is fine. It seems like I will be forced to learn a few things.
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And that was my point – I wanted you to see what we deal with on a regular basis – if you’re ‘coming out,’ you might want to see what it’s like out here. If I didn’t think you could handle it (based on what you’ve so far said), I wouldn’t have done it.
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lol
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I cannot argue that, but it sure doesn’t seem real. Just goes to show how much of a bubble we often build for ourselves.
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The word reached me! It’s true, I’ve had sour partings with 2 bloggers, Matt and Victoria, for different reasons. Religious/non-religious bloggers tend to want to cultivate a certain atmosphere, and sometimes they only want a certain level of engagement and to censor everything else. That’s perfectly understandable.
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I have also considered that I may in the future blog some people if it becomes necessary. I also realize that I have control of the tone and such here much like talk show radio hosts. I can use that to my advantage if I need. Those seem like good tools. I plan to use them sparingly.
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And there he is —
“I’ve had sour partings with 2 bloggers, Matt and Victoria, for different reasons.” – What am I, chopped liver?
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Did I tell you he was lurking –?
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Ah, Brandon! Hello sweetie! How the Gehenna are you?
🙂
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Always with the dramatic arrivals —
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Ark! Been OK these days, how are you?
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Always well, Senor B. How’s Yahweh treating you? Answering lots of prayers is he?
Haven’t you volunteered your skills to Ken Ham yet?
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lol, well. . . yes prayers definitely answered. I’d be better off calculating the rate leaves fall off my tree than volunteering for an organization like AiG. What about you, getting involved in any Cults of Reason?
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Just trying to enlighten members of your Death Cult about how nonsensical their faith truly is. Not so much for them, but for the sake of kids.
I am amazed just how many Fundamentalist Dickheads there are in Blogsville.
Can you believe some of these colossal Arse-Hats actually believe some smelly 1st century itinerant Jewish preacher came back from the dead and is the answer to such problems as watching porn?
Amazing, I tell you!
They also believe they will be going to some place called Hell for eternity if they don’t submit and worship this bloke, Jesus of Nowhere or something?
Quite bewildering what some people will believe, don’t you think?
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Seems to me it entirely depends on what religious belief we are talking about. I don’t see, say, believing the doctrine of resurrection to be the bane of civilization holding back progress and ruining lives of innocent children to the extent that it requires anyone conscientious to respond with such indignation that obscenities are optional and mockery necessary. Then what would? You ask if any of this bewilders me. No. What bewilders me is your response. The failure to distinguish benign from malignant, you are like a surgeon that suggests decapitation as treatment for gliobastoma – it’s not just ineffective, it’s a worse option than no treatment. I would like to see some nuance in you, Ark. But, more importantly you should realize that engaging fundamentalists, or their children, in an inflammatory matter is just like decapitation. Every insult hurled, every mocking word, is self-decapitation.
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Oh, I learned long ago that talking with people who think ancient Jewish dead men come back to life is like peeing on a forest fire.
There is nothing benign about god belief and such a comment demonstrates the level of indoctrination you suffer from.
Most believers come to their senses off their own bat, not because of interaction from normal people/atheists. Though I can claim being partially instrumental in the deconversion in one chap (James 82)who mostly lurked on my blog and even admitted I helped him see how farking stupid such beliefs truly are – ask the blog host for gods sake ( pick a god … any god)
So my thrust is simply to disseminate factual evidence and maybe one or two people will pick up on it as they pass by. Not to you of course. Being such a clever chappy, you get the low down on everything from Yahweh, yes?
So if my writing/comments reach one person and helps stop some despicable dipshit form pushing this crap onto children then I can allow myself a sigh and a smile and know in my heart of hearts that the days are truly numbered for screwed in the head religious nutters..
And what a sweet thought that is.
Oh, I never look at it as self – decapitation. Remember the lurkers and they are reading your responses just as much a they are mine and look to see if you have an intelligent honest answer to the charges leveled. So far I have never read one.
Besides, people who push religious belief do not deserve any subtly. Such Arse-Hats and previous minions have had 2000 years to get it right and all they have done is fuck everything up.
Is that nuanced enough for you Brandon?
*Hugs*
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Ark, you clearly are not simply relaying facts here. You are name calling, insulting, mocking. You hate theists. Can you not relay the facts without hate?
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I DO NOT hate theists. I despise theism.
Next you will be saying hate your imaginary god. Sheesh!
As not particular topic has been raised then I have not offered any evidence.
What evidence would you like?
Original Sin, Hell? Virgin Birth, Exodus? Other …
Take you pick.
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Your words and actions clearly demonstrate hatred towards theists, especially the name calling and disrespect. I think there is a time for provocation and this may appear as mockery, but you are indiscriminate.
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Indiscriminate? Not in the least, Brandon. I am an equal opportunity insulter.
I don’t hate theists. That would make it personal. Which it isn’t. Yes, I believe you are an indoctrinated ignorant fool. But that is curable.
You are an adult and have the right to believe whatever you like. Providing you keep it to yourself and don’t proselytize is as truth to those people who are unable to exercise critical thinking skills – namely children.
I hope my position is now perfectly clear?
Oh, and have you any evidence for your beliefs by the way?
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He’s baiting you, Ark – trying to get you to do that frothing at the mouth thing you sometimes do, while he supplies your antithesis, calm, cool and rational. It’s a show, intended for an audience.
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Oh, and of course you might like to remind yourself that because of your god, we have such wonderful humanitarian organisations like ISIS.
Gotta love Yahweh, yes?
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“I don’t see, say, believing the doctrine of resurrection to be the bane of civilization holding back progress and ruining lives of innocent children to the extent that it requires anyone conscientious to respond with such indignation that obscenities are optional and mockery necessary.”
As usual, you minimize the issue to make your point. I would agree that there’s nothing to be mocked about a five-year old believing in Santa Claus, but a twenty-five-year old who still does, is going to be mocked.
Further, no one tells the story of a man whose brain was turning to mush for three days, suddenly springing to his feet by magic, in isolation – it always goes along with the absolute necessity of believing such nonsense or facing the prospect of eternal punishment, and to me, that in itself, coming from an adult to an innocent child, is obscene.
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I got in a heated debate with my sister today about the Bible, forgetting that she’s taking Liberty courses on line. Yikes. I still love her and she still loves me. I’m just glad she’s there for me.
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Are you talking about Liberty University?
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Absolutely, Arch.
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I think “Yikes!” may have been an understatement!
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I am sure it is. They have a prominent set of online studies in the Christian realm.
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I know a believer that just got some form of divinity degree from Liberty and that person constantly proselytizes, but that person is also one of the most arrogant people I know. They think they know it all and is probably the closest person to being omnicient, next to God, that there is.
Another bad trait they have is to cut off any argument against God with a short “Nope, because of blah, blah, blah proved that wrong.” and then refusing to talk about that again. Which is funny because that person also feels that they have the right to give long detailed rebuttals and no one should dare cut them off.
I hope your sister does not end up like that.
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Sissy’s not arrogant at all, she has more than paid her dues throughout her life. However, she did try to blow off the Old Testament with me. I told her either god is the same yesterday, today and forever or he’s not. Don’t worry, scriptural debates are my expertise. I graduated from CFNI Dallas in the early 90s. My time there lead me to doubt everything. I still stayed a Christian for two decades after that. I didn’t trust my head that whole time. I was convinced that I was evil and just needed to trust god. My personal Bible studies had much more depth than all of those shitty Ladies bible studies out there. I wasn’t seeking to prove other Christians wrong, I researched and prayed like crazy to prove myself wrong. It was as though I became an atheist then, but tried to convince myself to remain a Christian for the next 20 years. I was often told by other women, especially spiritual leaders, that once I became a wife and mom I would better understand God and spiritual matters better. The opposite became true for me instead.
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I can sure relate to many of those feelings on a much, much shorter time table.
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If you had your druthers, how well-known would you want your blog to become?
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To be really honest, I want it to be very, very well know. Maybe I am asking for what I do not want. Maybe I am more naive than I think, but I think the bigger my following the better. I think I have a lot to offer in time to the non-religious crowd, in time. I also, think I can be a help to people that have questions. I think I can handle those who oppose me.
I am use to expressing myself. I have lived my career before people publicly. It is all I know. I am hoping that a big following will allow me to make my transition easier.
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“I think I can handle those who oppose me.” – Is there an echo in here?
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Thanks Victoria. I just don’t know if I can do it again. If I did I can assure you I would not be so nice.
I read about AD and had understood that. I’ve probably seen him speak. You know I was a bona fide meeting chaser throughout the South and the UK.
I absolutely enjoy Peter’s comments. I had no clue he was still a minister!
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“I read about AD and had understood that.”
Oh, sorry for the repeat. I wasn’t sure if you had read most of his posts, as I shared a little info from several of them.
I absolutely enjoy Peter’s comments. I had no clue he was still a minister!
No, he resigned as an assistant minister after the tongue thrashing he got from the online evangelist community.
Charity, I understand if you don’t blog again, especially if you are still getting triggers. You have to look out for your own best interests. I was incredibly amazed by the courage you had to blog so soon after deconversion. ❤
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Don’t be sorry, Queen V. You didn’t know I knew, you’re not a mind reader.
I don’t know if the triggers will ever stop. However, the little break through I told you about has helped tremendously!
My blog was eh on a good day. Both of yours are amazing!
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“My blog was eh on a good day.”
No, you’r blog was incredible, Charity. Even though I’d been deconverted for some years by the time I started reading your blog, I still had stuff I hadn’t dealt with yet, disappointment, grief, feelings of betrayal and anger, which I had suppressed. You helped me more than words could ever express, and I have no doubt your honesty and courage helped others, too. You are a gifted writer, my friend, and thank you for your kind words about my blogs. It was because of you that I found the courage to start sharing my own personal journey.
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Those are strong words of respect there! 🙂
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“Queen V” – I LIKE that!
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Yeah, I bet you do! I’m referencing her name, not her anatomy. Get your mind out of the gutter and back in the sewer where it belongs. 🐵
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What the fig are you talking about? I was thinking of Queen Victoria (though I’ll admit I transitioned to ‘Queen Bee’), but whose mind is in the gutter?
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You can tell I am still close to the fundy-side. I had to read this a couple times and think it through before I understood it.
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Hey, where’s Ark? Did I miss him on here? He always has something good to contibute to religious discussions. AD, are you familiar with him?
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I am not sure who Ark is. I am not sure if he has been here. Some of the others here might know.
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Arkenaten – a good friend, and no, he hasn’t been here.
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That is something I have considered. I will be so interested to find people I know or who know me when I become public.
I m sure there will be good and bad when I do.
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Take your time.
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There will be AD. I’m hoping that the ones who do know you and are on the same path will show you more love than the haters show hate.
You and your wife can email me anytime. You’re not alone in this. I truly believe that the numbers are rising for deconverts, many are still sitting in pews.
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I think you are right. I wish we really had a secret handshake.I was at a church earlier this year and was asked by a pastor, who was old enough to retire but brand new to that particular church, to keep the message about love. He asked to keep it simple and anyone who asked after the event would be given more details about Jesus and salvation.
I was so happy. I wondered if he was not a believer or at least questioning it all.
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Take Carmen for example, she’s staunchly atheist, but until her church closed this year (it was directly across the street from her), she was deeply involved with it simply because it was the hub of social activity in her tiny Nova Scotia town, not because of any religious affiliation.
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Thanks for your kind comments Charity. I also appreciate your comments.
I spent two and a half months continuing to minister after my faith had crumbled. In the discussion of my position with some on-line Christian folk I told then I tried not to harm people’s faith during this period, but of necessity my message did change as one can only really preach with conviction if you believe the message. The on-line Christian folk were very concerned that I continued to minister in this period and I could appreciate their concern. They felt it was hypocritical of me to continue to minister and saw a person like myself in such a role as being dangerous, from their world view that was a reasonable comment. So at the earliest opportunity I extracted myself from my ministry role. It was somewhat easier for me than most as I was ministering on an unpaid basis (I thought God had called me to ministry and others felt the same and I had even left my employment to thrust myself into the role).
My last church service as a minister was in late April. I was very glad to get out of ministering as it is extremely difficult to carry on such a role if you don’t believe it. So in the end I can be thankful to the on-line Christian community for expediting the process.
As an aside in the two and a half month period I continued in ministry with no faith I often found people would tell me how helpful my teaching had been on a particular day. The good folk in church still felt their God spoke to them. Ironically it was my talk on doubting Thomas that people identified with most, perhaps because at that stage I was able to preach with conviction on that occasion.
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It is more evidence that their god does not exist. I have had people come up to me and tell me they could sense the spirit of god in me. They just knew I was the mouthpiece for god. My words must be inspired through the holy spirit.
Made me feel bad actually.
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It shouldn’t – they read into it what they wanted to see, it simply means you have a powerful speaking ability, the subject matter is irrelevant.
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It makes me feel bad for them. I also do not like being part of the process that is misguiding them.
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You’d never be able to sell used cars —
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no probably not
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Peter, I am really sorry about that. I told Studly that as difficult as deconversion has been for us and our marriage, at least we weren’t in Church leadership. That certainly is even more difficult! I’m also glad that we had each other and our young kids. So many people lose their job and their spouse in the process.
In proud of you for your strength to be honest and walk away. That can’t be easy for anyone. I couldn’t imagine going through this reality as a minister.
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Arch, much as I respect you, your comment
shows the difference in thinking between those who truly had believed and those who never did in any serious way. I have a lot of respect and affection for my former Christian brethren. I see them now as being misguided and not properly informed, but most of them were good people of the highest integrity. It is not their fault they have been indoctrinated to believe in a something which is not true,
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Did I say otherwise, Peter?
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I suppose Arch I see it as not so much what they wanted to believe but rather what they had been indoctrinated to believe. But probably I am just splitting hairs.
I differentiate between what I see as humble Christians who really are seeking truth and the arrogant type who seem more interested in demeaning those of a different view. In regard to the latter I had in mind a person who uses a Lion as a moniker.
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“In regard to the latter I had in mind a person who uses a Lion as a moniker.” – At least that’s the side he shows us – when I think of him, this is what I see:
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My apologies, Arch. I read too much into your comment. I am sorry.
AD, you will occasionally see a rift between atheists, but most of the non believers on WordPress are phenomenal people. They know more about me than any family member or any of my past church acquaintances. We love each other and I am not one to throw the L word around like that. (I know, that’s ironic with my name and all.)
Ark is a great man. He’s another anti-theist atheist. He’s passionate about protecting children from the evils of religion. He has helped me so much!
Ruth, Zoe and Nan are also quite fantastic. Ruth has to be one of the most polite women I’ve come across on line, she is very considerate of others. Zoe, has been through a lot of drama with faith and she is willing to be open and vulnerable to the rest of us. Nan is well versed in the Bible and doctrine. She’s even authored a book about it. The rest I know have already dropped by your blog.
Arch is a humorous and highly intelligent man. He shoots straight from the hip and keeps it simple with me.
Deborah Mitchell is all about raising kids without religion. She has a blog by the same name that she has authored for at least a decade. She helped me to step my foot out of my fearful closet. I will always be indebted to her.
And Victoria…there’s a blog called Leaving Fundamentalism that’s now on Patheos. Victoria left a comment on a post and I checked out her blog about neuroscience. I was shocked! She wasn’t only providing information about how the brain works, she understood religion through her own experiences. I couldn’t believe what I read. Someone finally understood my mental and emotional toll. I thought she was too good to be true and I was scared to comment at first. We instantly became blogging buddies and I will always have her back. She is my friend.
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Most Excellent. I cannot think of any set or subset of people that do not have the occasional rift. There is nothing wrong with that. It is how those rifts are handled that make the difference.
I like reading the real names. I still can’t remember everyone’s name here yet. I have a hard time just keeping up with the blogs, additional reading, and links posted here and on other people’s blogs.
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And how could I forget Noel (Makagutu)?!
Noel is a marathon reader. He maintains intelligent conversation on his blog. He is an atheist surrounded by Muslims and Christians. He and I occasionally exchange emails. He’s kind and a good friend. He’s great at keeping calm and looking at the whole picture.
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sounds like a great asset to these conversations
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Onyango Makagutu was the first of any of you I met, as he and I commented on ‘Think Atheist’ when it was still active. ‘Mak’ was born of the Kenyan tribe of Luo (there are ten major Kenyan tribes), where he learned that language, then learned the lengua franca of Africa, Swahili, before mastering English, while I’m still struggling with ‘Merican. He considered running for the office of American President until he learned that another Kenyan had beaten him to it. And yes, he’s an obsessive reader – he devours Nietzsche and I had only to mention Dostoevsky and he was halfway through “The Brothers Karamazov.” Mak and I go back.
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“Ark is a great man.” – I’m not sure I’d go THAT far, he’s perfectly adequate.
“Arch is a humorous and highly intelligent man. He shoots straight from the hip and keeps it simple with me.” – Now THAT part’s true.
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“My apologies, Arch. I read too much into your comment. I am sorry.” – I’ll heal, it’s merely a flesh wound – I may be on crutches for awhile, but I’ll be OK —
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” Zoe, has been through a lot of drama with faith and she is willing to be open and vulnerable to the rest of us.” – niceatheist
Drama. Perfect way of putting it. Not as open and vulnerable as I’d like but in keeping with anonymity, just enough. 🙂
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That’s it, keep that diaphanous veil between us, you seductive little minx with a bouquet of posies.
(Don’t tell BikerDude I said that —)
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Just looked up “diaphanous” in the dictionary. Nice new word for me.
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God likes atheists best, we never bug him for anything.
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Mak will be over shortly.
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Lovely Ladies, as much as I’m enjoying this fireside chat while you roast my chestnuts on an open fire, I’ll have to decline your warm invitation, as I’m taking the Kiddos to see ‘Pan‘ this afternoon, so you’ll have to warm my cockles another day – parting is such sweet sorrow —
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I’m sorry, A/D, that Victoria is monopolizing your blog like this – while it’s true that I can’t take her anywhere, the home feels she should get out and get a little exercise from time to time. She usually quiets down once her meds kick in.
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Project much? That was rhetorical.
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lol
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Makagutu is here, late to the party as is usual of Africans.
I see others have spoken well of me already.
They are cool people, well, most of them.
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We’re just glad you made it, Noel.
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Thanks Charity
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Things are slowing down here – how about a rousing song about miracles to get the juices flowing again –?
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Can that boy play the piano, or what?
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Okay, I’m out of here. It’s been a great couple of days, but my eyes have had enough for now.
I hope you all have a great week. Thank you AD for letting us hang out on your blog. I wish the best for you and your wife.
Maybe I’ll chat with y’all in a week.
Peace,
C
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“I hope you all have a great week.”
You, too, Charity. I’m so glad you hung out with us. Rest well. xo
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Thanks! Stop by anytime.
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One more Tim Minchin, then it’s goodnight for me, too —
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Love Minchin. I think I watched all his vids one night til the next morning.
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Since A/D will likely be working in the morning, here’s tomorrow’s Sunday sermon for the rest of us —
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My Sunday Sermon, which I posted this morning, seems to have disappeared – let’s try it again:
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OK – so the Sunday Sermon DID show up, but I got no notification, and it was so high up in the post, I couldn’t find it. A/D, delete the last one of those if you wish, too many videos slow down response time.
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Your guest post on Patheos.com today should help raise the signal about your blog. Looking forward to hanging out!
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Guest post? Where?
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http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rationaldoubt/2015/11/coming-out-soon-the-disillusionist/
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AD, I was hoping Linda would feature you in one of her blog posts. Great interview.
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Thanks!
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Thanks for the link. Interesting read, and I’m glad you were featured.
You should reblog that here for others to see, too!
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I will have to see if I can figure out how to do that.
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AD, you won’t actually be able to do a reblog from Patheos, but you can write a short intro post, perhaps give a little background about Linda, and share the link. Just a suggestion. 🙂
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