I spoke at a conference today. Another speaker told the audience that our government is starting to make laws opposed to god’s laws. He warned the audience to obey god and disobey our government at all cost when that happens. He went on to say “Be ready to revolt. Be ready for persecution! It is coming and we must be ready.”
Later he said most churches are also dead wrong. God has not changed his distain for such disgusting sins such as homosexuality and drinking. He encouraged everyone to fight against those without reserve.
He proclaimed that true christians cannot hide any longer. The line has been drawn in the sand.
Days like today make me hurt. I wanted so badly to go back to the platform and dispute his claims. I know many pastors have good intentions and are sincere, but today’s message from that pastor was harmful.
I will be glad when I can stand up for what is right. I also know it will likely not change the minds of the people who have heard such things consistently for years. But hey, I changed maybe I can change one other person in time.
I also dread the backlash from churches and church members who follow me and look up to me “spiritually” that buy into messages like that one. I will not be surprised if I get death threats when I step out.
disillusionist 
Pardon the turn of phrase, but good heavens. It’s so sad. My heart goes out to you.
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Thanks! I know it will all be behind me relatively soon and things will be better.
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I’m only hitting the “like” button for support. It is daunting what I see in the evangelical movement today. Many of the evangelical blogs I read are downright scary. That other leaders in the conference didn’t stand up to this militant preacher is worrisome. I understand that it would be disadvantageous for you to stir the pot right now, given your situation.
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yes, I could not get up and say anything. I think “Stir the pot” would have been a mold way to put what may have transpired should I have spoken out.
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This is an excellently sad entry, and I can relate. Perhaps it is good to pause and get this out of the way by saying I am approaching your work on this anonymous blog with the same skepticism that you have when you snapped out of your delusional faith, so I say with no hesitation that I eagerly await the day that your readers can learn your real identity as there is no reason to think that this isn’t a fake blog made to look evangelicals look bad. While I did learn about it through The Clergy Project’s FaceBook page, Again, I trust you understand my skepticism. That being said, if you are who you say you are and are doing what you say you are doing, I am glad that you are not have to go through this alone.
For transparency, here is what I also shared on The Clergy Project’s page: “I’m following his blog, which is very good, and would like to know if you, The Clergy Project, can vouch for it’s validity. Is this gentleman affiliated with you, contacted you, and shared this blog with you and isn’t alone? Or did you find out about it on your own and share it?”
Regards,
Christopher William Schneider
Admin, https://www.facebook.com/groups/RationalThinkersUnite/
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I appreciate your skepticism. Our world needs more of it. Fortunately, time will show that I am sincere. I take no offense in you being questioning anything about me or my blog.
I am not sure to what degree TCP could verify me or my story as they as a whole do not know the story. The few that do understand how important anonymity is and probably would not verify it to anyone.
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Right on. I am willing to help retrain you into a new career, IT, if you need. Or anyone who is also in a similarly bad position in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area.
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Wow, that is a generous offer! I appreciate it. If my work and plans fail I may inquire more about that possibility.
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“…there is no reason to think that this isn’t a fake blog made to look evangelicals look bad.” – I’ve not found, Christopher, that evangelicals require a fake blog to accomplish that, they do that quite on their own.
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It is still good to be skeptical. Again, time will show the truth. I take no offense to anyone questioning the truth.
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That is indeed dangerous nonsense.
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I hit the *like* button for support but also hoping others will see it in my sidebar, be curious and come here to read your post. I left this kind of belief-system a long time ago. As for “most churches being dead wrong” I heard that all the time. Back in the day no one wasted time on the unbeliever really. The mission was to get them saved, baptized, contributing to the finances and serving in some kind of way. Then it seemed to get right back to trashing other denominations and one another . . . legalism. Quite frankly, it didn’t take long for the newly saved to be walking around like zombies. Alive but dead.
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I remember years back being confused how Southern Baptists insisted that Pentecostals were going to hell because they spoke in tongues and that was glorifying the flesh. At the same time, Pentecostals believed baptists were going to hell because they did not speak in tongues so they were not full of the spirit and therefore not saved. I saw many people “Get Saved” under teaching in both denominations.
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As someone who has been a Pentecostal and a Southern Baptist, I can vouch for this. It’s also funny to see them both skip over scriptures that go against their doctrine during Sunday morning services.
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Is this homecoming for you?
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Arch, as much as I’d like to mock that, it actually hurts me more. They’re babies. Two things are going on here: 1) obviously, indoctrination and 2) the desparation for something better in their lives. I spoke in tongues from the age of eight to 38. I really don’t remember doing that at 39, before my deconversion. There is a deep sorrow when I see young kids praying, preaching and speaking in tongues. What makes it all worse is when spiritual leaders and parents tell them to “press in” regarding the things of God. That’s the church’s resolve to relationships, friendships, job woes, financial drama and sexuality. No matter how much Jesus stuff those kids do, they will never be enough. And I do mean NEVER. This right here is what leads to teen pregnancy, suicide, eating disorders and so many other grievous things because everyone of those girls will grow up thinking they are never enough. And should they speak up in their churches and homes they are criticized and belittled even more for then they are too much. Damned if they do, damned if they don’t, either way it’s a cruel cycle of injustice towards children.
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I agree it’s not mockworthy, it clearly child abuse.
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So true, my friend. Yet, when we address it as such we are seen as doing the devil’s work. I feel bad enough for the little bit of exposure my kids had to religion. That time could have been spent building them up, not tearing them down. That’s what religion does, it can grind you down to dust.My 10 year old has confidently told me he’s an atheist for two years now. He’s consumed with his Harry Potter and Percy Jackson books. My seven year old is too busy with all things Minecraft and collecting rocks to give a shit about religion. Let kids be kids, don’t let religion rob their childhood.
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I’ve mentioned it on other blogs, the priests that concocted it were – devilishly clever – they created a disease (the inherent sinfulness of man), for which they have the only vaccine, and would you please pass the plate?
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That certainly is possible, but do you know that is how it all started? I think it could be a long evolution of religion for it to get where it is. There is no doubt that along the way men have used it to fill the coffers and gain from it.
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I’m not saying that’s how religion in general began, but certainly priests, both Aaronid and Levite, wrote the Torah. but religion itself is far older than that.
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I think calling it child abuse is another discussion. I am not saying it is not, but I might not agree, given certain parameters would have to be explored.
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So true in many cases
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AD as far as child abuse is concerned, I encourage you to look at the Bible stories taught to children…David and Goliath; Noah’s ark; the walls of Jericho; the couple who held back money in the epistles of Paul; the crucifixion of Jesus; the ruler of the land seeking to murder baby boys during the times of Jesus and Moses; and a woman putting us all under a curse for wanting to know more. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg of stories presented in color book form to children in home/Christian schools, Christian homes and Churches on a regular basis.
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Are we forgetting that little bedtime story found in 2 Kings 2:23-25, when two bears tore 42 little kiddos to shreds?
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Wasn’t that when those little ones called a prophet of God baldy? Yep, touch not his anointed, will strike you dead every time! Teach those kindergarteners a lesson!
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Yep, Elisha – now if his god had not afflicted him with male pattern baldness, none of that would have happened, but since his god was omniscient, then he obviously KNEW it would happen, but made Elisha bald anyway, which of course makes no sense – unless you happen to work in mysterious ways —
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so true! I never thought about god could have just let him keep his full head of hair and no one would have never been the wiser. Because it would have never happened.
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That may well be the difference between being on the inside, looking out, and being on the outside, looking in.
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could be
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I agree that there was child abuse in the Bible. I agree there is child abuse in churches today. I am just saying that the one particular video that was posted may or may not have been a part of child abuse.
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How did it start? They say religion began when the first con man met the first fool.
And ever since, there has been an unbroken line of “God wants your valuables. Give them to me and I’ll mske sure he/she/it gets them.”
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You touched on something I’ve been thinking about lately: a lot of Christians, pastors and a good number of Republican presidential candidates are saying society has strayed from God and if we can reclaim that relationship school shootings, crime rates, etc… will go down. As a fellow nonbeliever what type of social change do you think is needed to help some of our countries problems if God isn’t an option?
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Well, It is kind of tough for me to say what social change we would need. I am still struggling with understanding my position on several social issues. I do not want to just keep my former or present view knowing it is biased by my former belief, but I do not want to just believe something different for the sake of change. I really do want to understand what is true and know why I believe it.
For example:I have a son and he is old enough to be sexually active. While I do not believe it is a sin if he has sex with someone outside of marriage, I am not ready to condone the idea that he should go have sex with someone just for the sure pleasure of it. Should he only have sex with someone he loves? Is it OK to have a one night stand for the pure ecstasy of a special experience? I am not exactly sure where I stand on that yet. I don’t want to definitely answer those kind of questions because I do not really know where I stand.
Does that make sense? I am not skirting the issue.
Now, I think anytime we love and respect others as equals it is a good start. Gay people aren’t evil because of their sin.
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Yes, definitely makes sense. I didn’t mean to pin you in a corner for answers to every problem! You raise an interesting thought though, with the bible not giving much wiggle room on homosexuality how did you first start to change your mind on this issue? I suppose that could be another blog post too.
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Well, once I saw that there was and has been no god there simply was no reason to have an issue with homosexuals. I have always tried to treat others right and respect them. If god doesn’t exist then homosexual acts are not sin so there is no issue with homosexuals.
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I’ll just put a little bug in your ear, here Disallusionist – I’m not sure that there are any such things as ‘homosexual acts’ . .. if you get my drift. (probably made ya blush, eh?) 🙂
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I guess I never thought about it. Well, I was in a play one and all the men in one scene were gay. Was that a homosexual act?
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When one stops viewing sex as sinful, it is possible to move on to more realistic considerations, including consensual/non consensual and stupid/not stupid.
A one night stand with someone you just met is inherently stupid. For those old enough to remember, the William Kennedy Smith episode is a case study in stupid. My kids are relatively young, but my focus will be health, consent and safety.
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But would a consensual one night stand with the right person, say on vacation or some special place not possibly be a magical time? Something to cherish for life?
I am all for safety, but am I biased to the point of depriving my offspring of some amazing times?
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Further, it’s impossible to say just where what began as a “one-night stand” might ultimately lead.
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That is true, but I was putting out a scenario just to think about.
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As it happens, I married what I thought would be a one night stand, and spent the happiest year of my life – unfortunately, we were married for ten —
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lol and so sad
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I got four beautiful daughters out of it, so it was worth every minute. It wasn’t quite as bad as hanging from my thumbs for ten years, but if that’s what it would have taken to get those girls, I’d have done that too.
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Good point. I could use a nice one stand at the beach now and then 🙂 (altho for many reasons it’s a tad unlikely in my case.) The cold hard truth is that if I had not bought into the christian garbage about sex as a teen and young adult my life would probably be different.
So the bottom line is the one thing that does not matter is whether someone’s invisible friend will be unhappy.
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So true, but I shall continue to sort out my understanding on the whole matter.
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Hi Disallusionist –
I’m following along and want to extend my support to you. Not to be nitpicky (OK, maybe I am) but I wanted to fix your last sentence. “Gay people aren’t evil”. Full stop. Since I don’t believe in evil OR sin (those are ‘religious’ words) I think it’s worth pointing out to you that your indoctrination is apparent. I’ll assume you are working on that. 🙂
Oh, and get your son some condoms and tell him how to use them – that’s my practical advice as an educator and – mostly – as a Mum. 🙂
All the very best to you.
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Thanks for the comment. I do not believe in sin. Sin by definition is disobeying god, who doesn’t exist, but I am not sure I could say there is no evil. Evil, by definition is something profoundly immoral. I do think that exists. The statement is one I choose to use is because that is how it was described in the sermon I heard. The other minister used that verbiage.
By the Way, How would you suggest I correct that statement? I would like to know because i am sure I will need to defend my position in the future when discussing things with believers, and I need to understand things as fully as I can. Thanks!
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I corrected it for you – it should read, “Gay people are not evil”. Gay people are just like the rest of us, Disallusionist. They have same-sex partners, that’s it. 🙂
Things that are profoundly immoral – well, I guess I see that as subjective. But I prefer that term to ‘evil’.
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Also, I told my son I did not believe sex is a sin and when he decided to have sex I would buy him the condoms. That way I would be aware that he is sexually active and so he would not get embarrassed, back out of buying them, and have unprotected sex.
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Good for you! I can tell you’re a realist! (and a responsible Dad)
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I try.
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Hello adisillusionist! Zoe forwarded me your blog link today and I’m here checking it out…your story sounds like it’s going to very painful to disengage from religion. I’m glad you’re not going it alone. I’ve been out of devout catholicism for about a year. It’s been a rather agonizing journey and I lost all my friends and family…but it was worth it in the end to live authentically. I used to blog but ended up closing it down when it was discovered by family. Please do be very, very careful about your anonymity.
About the word “evil”…the reason some atheists cringe when a non-believer uses that word is because it’s often associated with satan. If you don’t believe in god, it doesn’t make much sense to believe in satan. Christians will bait you with the word evil and say that if you use it, you believe in the devil and are a theist at heart. It is my experience that religious language is very difficult to get rid of, even if you’ve given up god. It takes a long time to break the habit.
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Wow, thanks for the post! I do not associate evil with any supernatural source. In your experience, (which is helpful because i have none.) when talking to believers what word or term do you use for the concept evil?
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Most atheists I’ve seen reply with the answer that there is no such thing as “good and evil” (because these are associated with the supernatural)…there is simply good and bad decisions/behaviors by humans.
Unlearning religious language and replacing it with secular language has been a long road for me, but when you do, it can keep you out of a lot of trouble. It’s going to take some time though.
It’s good you’re blogging…this will give you the chance to develop a support system of nonbelievers. You’re going to need a REALLY thick skin if you plan to come out of christianity. For me that was a major benefit of blogging…having other nonbelievers at my back while christians tried to verbally beat the shit out of me was a life-saver.
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Gotcha! It will sure take time.
I did not really know what to expect when I started this blog. I am glad for all the positive and negative replies. I am learning a ton. I didn’t really expect such an array of support and ideas. I really thought if I kept my journey running on line it might be help to others.
I have seen so many people argue both sides of the theistic issue without ever brining in the the personal experience. I felt like others might find that it is not just a mental exercise. This issue is real life with real consequences.
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A lot of experienced debaters never bring their personal business into a conversation about religion…this is because it can be used against you in terrible ways. I made this mistake a lot at first and paid a price, so my advice is to keep it all business with the theists.
Now on your own blog or on the blogs of other non-believers, feel free to let it rip with the personal info…you will find many who can relate to you and support you. I found the friendship and advice of both lifelong atheists and deconverts invaluable. You are quite right…this is real life with real life consequences…BIG consequences. You will need to share your burdens with people who understand to come out of this in one piece.
One more thing: you commented on another post about how you feel like a fraud because you’re still preaching. Don’t. Others are going to throw horrible accusations at you regarding this issue, but don’t let it eat at you. It takes TIME to untangle your life from christianity. You have a complicated situation with the church being the financial source for yourself and your family. Your coming out must be carefully planned and executed…this is not something to rush into. Don’t think of it as “fooling people,” think of it as getting your shit together while you plan an exit strategy. You’re not a liar…you’re taking care of yourself and your loved ones (because no one else is going to).
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Thanks!!! I really am trying to be smart about things and not cause more pain and risk to my family than they will have to go through. It will not be easy for them either. Thanks for the encouragement!.
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Has anyone mentioned this blog to you yet? http://brucegerencser.net/
It’s the blog of an ex baptist minister I really enjoy.
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nope, i’m going there now.
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some did point me there recently.Thanks for the share.
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I agree about “sin”. But I didn’t have the same word association between “evil” and devil/demons/supernatural in my head as you when I was a believer. Sometimes, depending on context, but not always.
I don’t know how common each of our perspectives are in this. I’m not personally inclined to jettison the word “evil” completely, but I’m glad to know how some other people may perceive it.
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Yeah, it is amazing sometimes how people can use the same words but totally misunderstand intent or ideas because the words mean different things to different people. Often times people believe they are on the same page as the others they are talking to but they actually are not.
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Re: condoms. A little information that often is missed. Condoms don’t cover the scrotum. HPV (sexually transmitted) often hides out on the male scrotum and they are unaware of it. Keep in mind the prevalence of oral sex too and pardon the pun but a condom won’t cover all of that either.
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Absolutely true, Zoe. (and Zoe’s a nurse – she’s the expert) Mine was a glib comment but more to point out that frank discussions about sexuality, contraception and up-to-date information should be the aim. 🙂
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One wonderful thing I learned through all this is to have a very open relationship with my family. We discussed our change in belief with the kids and that lead to discussing everything. There is nothing we can’t talk about.
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Thanks!
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I think that terms such as evil and immoral derive from religious connotations.
Granted, there are those unfortunates who are born sociopaths, whose hardwiring doesn’t allow them to feel empathy for others, but even of those, only a small percentage become murders, the remainder go on to live socially accepted lives as lawyers, used-car salesmen, politicians and mega-church ministers.
The majority of those who commit crimes do so due to their personality formation in childhood and the role models they find themselves with by the luck of the draw. Sadly, we have to be licensed to drive, but almost any idiot can conceive a child.
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Arch, you wrote: “Sadly, we have to be licensed to drive, but almost any idiot can conceive a child.”
You make a valid point but it is far more complex than an idiot conceiving children. Like in nature, instincts kick in and it’s usually quite natural for a mother to nurture and protect her child. However, the environment plays a significant role. It’s a wee bit difficult to give a child the necessary and demanding attention necessary to wire their brains when a mother is living in poverty, in a domestic abuse situation, oppression/subjugation (often due to religion), natural disasters, illness, and war.
We must also take into account that sometimes the mother won’t produce enough oxytocin to form a proper attachment with her infant, but that’s not because she’s an idiot. She may experience postnatal depression, but that’s not because she’s an idiot. Without oxytocin and vasopresson, primary caregivers wouldn’t bond with their children. All of these can interfere with the primary caregiver/child bond, interring with attachment, thus impacting the child’s perception of reality, mental and physical health and behavior. To make matters worse, you have religions teaching that its “godly” to beat your kids, with a rod, no doubt. This will also interfere with bonding and prosocial behavioral development, and can turn on the aggression gene in the child, especially in males.
Adverse childhood experiences lead to dysfunctional societies. The Center for Disease Control states:
@Disillusionist, apologies for the OT. Just thought this comment needed clarification.
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I’m well aware of the validity of all you said, Victoria, but I was going for brevity, as the actual topic were the terms, evil and immoral.
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Yes, I was well aware that you were aware of this data. I elaborated due to your brevity because evil and immorality have been associated with the fall of man, because of who?
“And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.”
1Timothy 2:14
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With no disrespect to anyone here I still am not convinced that I am using the wrong term when I say evil. I think people understand that someone can be evil and not associate it with a deity. I may be wrong and may change my mind, but I think it can be used per the dictionary definition of the word
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I agree. It also depends, I think, on your upbringing and culture. I no longer associate evil with a deity or Satan, but I did when I was a Christian. My friend, who is from Denmark, and never raised in a religious environment, nor is a believer, doesn’t use the term evil when describing unethical behavior.
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I am going to be conscious of this and see where it goes.
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And that’s why Baskin-Robbins makes 31 flavors.
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THAT you will not hear in church!
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I told my soon to be teen that when the time came I would buy him condoms and a zucchini to practice on. The look on his face was priceless. But I wanted him to know that we can talk about anything and nothing is off limits.
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I wonder if there is a difference in feeling toward young men having sex and young women. Is the double standard alive and well? Does the humanist crowd look differently at their daughters having sex and many partners than their sons doing the same.
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Perhaps at that age, a gherkin might be more appropriate – you don’t want your son developing a case of zucchini envy.
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i feel compassion for you but i do wonder, don’t you feel like a liar? there is no god, we agree. but most of us don’t need a 2000 year old book of fables, oral history, myths , metaphors and allegory to value the truth. how do you handle that? i under stand you have financial considerations, but welcome to the real world. we all do. so how? how are you able to “minister”to your “church family” without feeling like a big honking liar?
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I will be quite honest. I do feel like a liar and that is why I am making my exit from the church and why I am going to open up about being a non believer. If it were not for the fact that I have a family that would be homeless I would just walk away and be open now. I am in the final stages of being able to replace a good share of my income from church work. I have reduced my monthly bills to a minimum to help in this process.
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have you considered one of those patreon things your followers could contribute to? I can’t give much, but I would give and so would others. We’re accustomed to the vagaries of the job market but you’re a newbie. I would bet many would help.
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I have not considered that. I will contemplate it in time. The church works on offerings and such giving. I suppose I am not opposed to it but I will have to think about it first. I truly appreciate your offer to give regardless of the amount. It truly means more than you probably know!
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dude. your story reinforces my struggle. thank you. don’t thank me.
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P.S. I don’t know whether this would be helpful or not, but an example of talking about Christian themes without the supernatural is over on Rational Doubt… the moderator invited me to address a comment that was made by a visitor “At least Jesus died for a good cause.” If you had time to comment, you would probably add value to the conversation! http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rationaldoubt/2015/10/psychoanalyzing-god/
The way I tell the story without getting in to substitutionary atonement is —
“The way I have told the story when leading Christian worship is much like Abelard. People often think of God as being scary, out to get us and keeping track of our bad behavior. But I describe how Jesus was not like that. Jesus talked about God’s mercy and hung out with people thought to be sinners. When legalistic religious leaders tried to get rid of him, Jesus would not take back this view of God – not even under torture. And ultimately, resurrection [whatever that is] ratified his view of God as being merciful. ”
I go on to write that I think Jung would not approve of my account, because since “God” is Reality, symbols of both god and humans have to have a shadow side.
I would describe myself as maybe an agnostic Christian freethinker… and join your online community in sending my very best for your journey of conscience!
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P.P.S. I should have proofread one more time and ditched that “probably” for “you would”!!! That’s what decades of “maybe-ing” will do for your language!!!! : )
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Also, just for more information on how I am trying to get better. (I am not sure it is really better or just a bit of self justification.) I have changed the way I present my messages. I talk more in generalities and less specifically about Biblical passages. Also, if I refer to concepts such as sin or salvation, I will say “according to the Bible…blah, blah, blah.
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I find it’s not so hard to talk about specific biblical passages, because most of them have universal meanings underneath if they’re not taken literally — that’s why they “stuck” to get into the bible, I think : ) Joseph Campbell’s work on myths and Jung’s on symbols and archetypes mean a lot to me. Wishing you well! Thank you for blogging! [agnostic Christian freethinker : ) — meeting you via “JamesJameson”]
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Glad to have you follow!
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Basically speaking, Neil Carter, in his “Godless in Dixie” blog, addressed a similar issue. Neil maintains,
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That is well said. I think that can be true even if they don’t realize it.
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I’ll put this comment down here because I wasn’t sure where it would end up, if I pressed the ‘reply’ button where I was meant to . . .
I just wanted to leave a thought with you, Disallusioned, after the sidebar ‘condom’ conversation. You probably realize that most of us are parents/grandparents. As such, we aren’t just concerned about you; it extends to your whole ‘fam damily’. 😉
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I find virtually nothing but love here for me and my family! Thanks so much!
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Oh boy. I sure hope that does not happen.
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I’ve just noticed a grave error on my part – I’ve been spelling your moniker incorrectly, Adisillusionist! Egads! I know I can be a bit thick, but my apologies.. (Red cheeks)
Sometimes I can’t ‘see for looking’!
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Not a problem!
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“my apologies.. (Red cheeks)”
As a ginger-haired Northeast Canadian, your cheeks are always red!
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adisillusionist · 10 Hours Ago
“I agree that there was child abuse in the Bible. I agree there is child abuse in churches today. I am just saying that the one particular video that was posted may or may not have been a part of child abuse.”
It is difficult to see how that video cannot be perceived as child abuse. Considering their ages, do they have full knowledge and therefore understanding of what it is they are doing. Have they given their consent to be in this place where they not only observe this behaviour but are taught it? I think where we get into trouble with whether it is or is not abuse starts with us being uncomfortable with the notion that if it is abuse then the parents are abusive for putting them in this situation. All kinds of loving and sincere people/adults/parents/family expose their children to this kind of spirituality/dimension/practice/faith etc.. Are they abusive adults for doing so? That’s the question I think that makes us queazy. Just because these children, are carrying on like this because their loving parents take them to church doesn’t mean the parents are participating in child abuse. Right? Is that what makes one ill at ease about it actually being child abuse?
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That’s a great point, Zoe. Does not knowing it’s child abuse diminish its effects? I dare say, no.
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I agree
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No one could have told me (though our denomination did not do tongues) that in and of itself that it is child abuse. Though if I had seen this going on (I wonder who is holding the camera? An adult?) I would have been very ill at ease.
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Zoe, I’ve seen so many of the videos while doing research on religious trauma, and in nearly every one I’ve viewed, these children were crying, and it wasn’t because a friend they were grieving over someone being sick or had died.. It was because they were feeling shame for being human, a “sinner”, and for Jesus having to die for them. Also, the video that Arch posted, that pastor walking around in the middle of the night in an area known for high crime, speaking in tongues, and claiming that he has a special protection, sends an alarming message to children.
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Very dangerous. Every couple years a looney dies from snake handling in church too.
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I just know on blogs and such where lurkers read everything like Greg Brady and his “exact words” it pays to discuss out things and the way they are worded so people can not use your posts against you later.
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” it pays to discuss out things and the way they are worded so people can not use your posts against you later.”
That’s so true — words of wisdom.
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Great point, Zoe!
If these kids were in a cult even the religious would criticize this. That word “religion” often blinds all of us from seeing the reality of the situation. Using the r word helps us to justify such teachings and actions. We don’t want the adults to feel guilty for aggressively indoctrinating impressionable brains that will not be fully formed for years to come. After all, they see it as “training up a child” for the better good in god.
As I have often heard and continue to see around here regarding child evangelism, “get em while their young”! If people don’t believe me they are oblivious to the VBS signs throughout their towns/cities, Church Easter egg hunt brochures passed out at their children’s public schools and community “family friendly” events sponsored by local churches. And that’s only what we see outside of Churches. I could spend all day on what goes on inside Bible Schools/Colleges and Churches regarding child evangelism.
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I hear you. Been there done that. Though time creates a bit of distance I will always carry a heavy burden regarding my own children and those during our youth ministry years.
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I know Zoe. It’s difficult. There are still times when I deal with my children in a humiliating way, or I’m about to, and I have to suddenly stop. It then dawns on me that I am mirroring the bad parenting I had growing up, as well as the controlling leadership I continued to see for years after that. Change doesn’t happen over night. I firmly believe that the longer and harder someone falls for Jesus, the more they’ll have to fight religion’s familiarity once they’re out of it.I try my best to say “sorry” and “thank you” to my children as often as I can and truly try to show them that I mean it. For the 40 years I was in religion, I almost never heard my parents and spiritual leaders say those words. It was as if their existence in my life should have been more than enough for me. The fact that I needed love, respect, encouragement and nurturing was left up to me to find through prayer, worship and the Bible. And quite frankly, what I found in all of that just validated their views and how they treated me. In addition to being cruel, and smug, I’ve recently realized that people like that are above all, LAZY. “I’ll make invisible Jesus do all the work so that I don’t have to. What? You’re not getting all those things from him? Well, you’re just not watching and listening enough. You need to try harder.”
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Charity, I am not aware of any commandment that tells parents to respect their children. I know that Jesus purportedly warned adults to not be the cause of their children “stumbling”. Besides the negative message about women, and framing believers for a murder we didn’t commit, the biggie for me was betrayal — investing profound love in a lie, and the sacrifices required to prove that love (dying to myself).
I also wanted to mention that for me, personally, the realization of emotional abuse didn’t fully surface until after my deconversion, as regions of my brain that had been deactivated, slowly came back online.
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This is the definition by the federal government.
“Any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation”; or
“An act or failure to act which presents an imminent risk of serious harm.”
I would have to say the kids are not suffering physical harm or sexual harm or exploitation, and I do not believe any of them are being killed.
I think we are discussing whether they are being emotionally harmed. The definition of “harm is to injure or damage”. I think in watching the video we cannot tell if they are being emotionally injured. They are certainly emotionally involved. They are mimicking what they have seen, but I think without meeting with the children and getting a bigger picture we cannot be sure.
I look at it like being on jury duty. I suspect they are being abused mentally, but I do not think I can definitely say that is the case over one short video. I do not think we should be quick to judge other people or events that we are not involved with by a short video.
Do I think kids in church are being mentally abused by religion and often times under very sincere adults trying to help them? Absolutely. Do I think that could be the case with these kids? Absolutely. Would I testify to it in court as the only evidence being that video? No.
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Having once been witness to such an environment, as well as Zoe and Charity, it appears that these children are crying because they are feeling shame—shame that because of their “sins”, Jesus suffered greatly and had to die. This in turn is magnified by the indoctrination of hell. Published in the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies, Psychologist Marlene Winell writes:
http://www.babcp.com/Review/RTS-Trauma-from-Religion.aspx
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It may appear that way and it may well be, but that isn’t the only possible reason. Maybe the girls are praying because a friend was sick and now they are better and the girls feel that person is healed. They may be caught up in the moment and “speaking in tongues”. I have known people to a service and speak in tongues out of the blue. They later felt strange about it and never did again.
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I agree, they could have been praying for a friend who was sick. However, they were praying within an authoritarian environment that promoted penal substitutionary atonement. In other words, these children were framed for a murder they didn’t commit, not to mention the indoctrination of hell. As a child, I had night terrors for years because of the indoctrination of hell, and what god would do to people who disobeyed them, like drowned them. I also battled with low self-esteem, directly related to my religious upbringing.
This comment below is from a young man who went through a painful deconversion (like most of us have) and suffered, greatly from the negative psychological impact of mainstream Christianity.
“If an idea can’t stand on its own truthfulness, it has to find another way to survive. And often the way that happens is by the gradual, unintentional, or intentional refinement of the hijacking of our emotional architecture. Possibly the most effective, most powerful way a belief could do this would be to devalue or eliminate all other sources of self-affirmation— which Christianity does with devastating efficacy—so that there is no hope, or beauty, or meaning, and more importantly, no integrity of the self without it.
If a belief can do this to you, you will have almost no chance of being able to critically evaluate its truthfulness. Christianity alters your identity to ensure the survival of itself. And the ones who are the most vulnerable to this message are the ones who already deal with the insecurity of feeling like they are not good enough: young people…]”
Richard Sennett is a Professor of Sociology and the Humanities, as well as a Fellow of The Center for Advanced Study in the Behavioral Sciences, of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences.
He states: “Shame has taken the place of violence as a routine form of punishment in Western societies.”
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It is horrible what you have been through and what others have been subjected to. I was indoctrinated in the existence of hell and all it’s horrors, but I did not have and of the reactions you did. I was a real place and a bad place, but I do not feel I suffered emotionally from it.
I am not minimizing your experience whatsoever. I just don’t want to make a judgement about a situation I was not involved in by a short video clip.
I really think as far as abuse and the harm of the church mentally and emotionally we are for the most part on the same page.
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“I just don’t want to make a judgement about a situation I was not involved in by a short video clip.”
Fair enough, AD. If I’ve learned one thing from you since you started blogging, you are fair and open-minded, and I really respect that.
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Thanks, I try to be
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I am not defending this video! I am not saying that anything anyone is saying does not happen or is not happening in this video. I just think it is not a good idea to make a final judgement about specific people based on a 1 minute video of them. I do not want to be judged like that.
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I have other videos of much greater length, I just felt that about a minute’s worth was all most anyone could stomach.
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I agree. I have seen it first hand. Even when I believed in god some things like that I saw in certain churches troubled me.
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I could make a one minute video of all of Michael Jordon’s bad plays spliced together and make it look like he could not play basketball to someone who doesn’t know who he is.
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I think this video clip is very much a part of a great reality that many of us experienced &/or even promoted. Though my intention is to not judge, I do think many of us know what comes before, during and after these types of experiences because we’ve been there. Can we be absolute in our thinking? No. But that was never my intention. I’m not making a blanket statement. I’m pondering. 🙂
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Now, I totally agree with that!
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N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ · 4 Minutes Ago
“Zoe, I’ve seen so many of the videos while doing research on religious trauma, and in nearly every one I’ve viewed, these children were crying, and it wasn’t because a friend they were grieving over someone being sick or had died.. It was because they were feeling shame for being human, a “sinner”, and for Jesus having to die for them. Also, the video that Arch posted, that pastor walking around in the middle of the night in an area known for high crime, speaking in tongues, and claiming that he has a special protection, sends an alarming message to children.”
I am easily one of those girls. Easily. I can’t watch another video . . . yet. Can’t believe I watched that one! You know me, always trying to balance the triggers.
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I’m just glad you’re out, Zoe. I’m amazed at how courageous you are to share your story. You help me heal.
You, Violet, Ruth and Victoria have all been beneficial in my journey to being a better everything for you all help me to be a better me.
Thank you!
Charity
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Ditto, my dear friend.
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Great people here.
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A lady told me that when she had been young her Sunday School teacher told her that every lie she told was another thorn in the Crown of Thorns placed upon the head of Jesus.
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I bet every time she spent private time with herself a little puppy died.
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Peter,
I often heard that every time we sin we nail Jesus back on the cross. I especially remember this through human videos (dramas) during my youth services as a teenager. That was at an AG church in the 80s.
Here’s a thought for you to consider, AD, about Christianity and child abuse, look at its origin. God sent his only begotten son to this earth to torture him and murder him. God is the ultimate child abuser.
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Forgive me if I don’t recall, Charity (actually, I don’t think it ever came up), but are you an American?
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Yes, Arch. I’m an American. I was born in the Midwest, and raised in the Southeast. I’ve also lived in southern California, Hawai’i and England.
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The reason I asked, is because what you were saying, reminded me of a story, one to which an American could better relate than someone from another country – the story of little George W (Washington), and his daddy’s cherry tree.
One thing I recall vividly from my text book in second grade, was the story of how the Father of America, George Washington, when a child himself, received a new hatchet for his birthday. Anxious to try it out, little George surveyed the rows of blossoming cherry trees lining his father’s long, winding driveway. Choosing one of these, he commenced to break up the set by using his hatchet and chopping it down. Obviously his father noticed its absence on the buggyride up the driveway to the house, on his return from a long day at the office, located his young son and asked him about it. I think even those readers who may not be native to America are familiar with those famous words, “Father, I cannot tell a lie – I did it with my little hatchet.”
As a reward for his honesty, little George’s father, George Herbert Walker Washington, declined to punish little George W for his behavior, thus freeing little George from the belief that actions require a willingness to accept responsibility for those actions, so that should he decide to invade another country for its oil once he had become president, he would feel no compunction about inventing weapons of mass destruction as an excuse. But I digress —
Once upon a time in America, in 1800, there was a “gentleman,” and I use the term ever so loosely, named Weems. Reverend Mason Locke Weems, it seems, was not only a pastor but also, each in its turn, a sailor, a medical student, an accomplished player of the fiddle, author, and a seller of books. During his pastoring days, which occurred sporadically whenever his book sales were down, he found himself teaching a Sunday School class in addition to his regular duties delivering sermons.
He wanted to teach his wide-eyed young class the evil of telling lies, so he concocted the story of young Washington as a shining example of the reward for always being truthful. He taught his lesson of truthfulness by fabricating a lie and passing it on to innocent little minds as the truth, a lie so convincing, that generations later, that lie could still be found in reputable text books designed to educate other little children.
Later, he wrote a book about the life of Washington, most likely as authentic as his Sunday School story, but because, in the early 1800’s, the public was hungry to learn about the father of their country (combined with the fact that there was little else but the Bible to take to the outhouse for reading material), that, authentic or not, it sold well. The story has since been deleted from all official public school books, but for many years, it was what all young children were taught.
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You know what’s crazy, Arch? I heard my 10 year old tell that story to my seven year old (good ole Tennessee public school education) a few months back. I told him “there’s some speculation that story’s not even true.” Then again, I don’t go around praising our founding fathers. I can’t believe I saw David Barton at two different conferences years ago. According to him, all of our early presidents were basically saints. Meh.
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Meanwhile, in Mississippi..
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Not exactly a step towards separation of church and state.
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Hubby and I were watching the local news at 5 or 6 PM a couple of days ago. This commercial came on and we both said “What the hell?!” BTW, Mississippeans often use that song for political purposes regarding children’s issues in their ads. This particular commercial didn’t bother me at first because the song didn’t mention the verses about Jesus or Satan. However, when they coupled it with that scripture I became furious. Living where I do I often see politicians from Tennessee, Arkansas and Mississippi discussing their faith in campaign ads. It comes with the territory. However, I feel the above commercial took it too far.
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God and Jesus as one. The ultimate masochist and sadist satisfying both at once within himself.
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Interesting you should mention that, it reminds me of the Sadist and the Masochist who got married. On their wedding night, the Masochist said, “Hurt me! Hurt me!” With an evil grin, the Sadist said, “No.“
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I told that joke recently.
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Yes, a similar teaching in the Ray Boltz song, that being every time we sin we drive the nails in Jesus’ hand. That we are the Roman soldier holding the hammer and nail and driving it in. Bang bang bang.
That song use to bring people to their knees (metaphorically speaking). Often used before partaking of The Lord’s Supper/communion.
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Thanks Charity. That’s very meaningful. I appreciate it. ❤
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Charity – to your comment way up there. Saying “sorry” and asking “forgiveness” from our children (while they were still young) when I screwed up was the best thing I ever did. I was 50 years old before I heard an “I’m sorry” from my parents and even then they still thought I had it all wrong. But I wasn’t raised in a fundamentalist Christian home. I turned to born-againism to find a solid foundation as a teen, not knowing naturally what it is I was “finding.”
I made a practice of honestly facing my screw-ups and going to the kids to say I screwed up because it was never done for me and it was costly.
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The Mets made the World Series? Why did no one tell me? That’s the American equivalent of hell freezing over – maybe the Apocalypse IS upon us!
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“Be ready to revolt. Be ready for persecution! It is coming and we must be ready.” My parents believe this 100%!! So many are putting fear into good hearted people. I believe that I wrote about my frustration. My parents can’t really enjoy life any longer because they are preparing for the end and believe they are going to be killed for believing in God.
I try to give reason, it just doesn’t stick.. Then somehow I come off as a bitch.
I have personally seen how people throw out death threats and death wishes. I’m afraid that you will get those. Most will be hoping God punishes you.
I’m very sorry.
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Thanks
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I’m sorry about your parents, a life lived in fear isn’t worth living.
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It bothers me so much. They are smart people being fooled
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